Q is for Query - Tatra's World Soldiers

I'd forgotten - when I started the Q is for Question Time trope the other week - until I was tagging - that I'd started a Q is for Query trope years ago! In the interests of fairness (and an Aspergic need for balance and order in a perceived micro-universe!) I will revive the latter (which was the former) while continuing with the former (which is the newer!), using QT for real, out-and-out questions, and Query for the more thinking-aloud type thing!

This will be of no consequence to anyone coming to the blog on another day, but I thought I'd mention it. Anyway; I'll use 'Question Time' as the tag for both types of post.

When I originally pulled all the Soldiers of the World stuff together and mused on some of those questions (before we discovered they were Tatra), one of the sources described 'brown' figures, now this Zulu, individually encountered for the first time would be best described as bronze; and knackered.

But having found several gold and bronzy-gold figures over the years, it's quite clear that this chap is an altogether darker colour, which although metallic could be considered brown to some observers?

I offer it up; damaged as it may be, as an example of the [possibly] brown versions mentioned in the past, and will keep it (in this state) until a better one turns-up.

Also, while I have never previously seen factory painted versions of these; the treatment of the paint is of a 'stab-and-hope' execution that looks quite commercial, especially the lacing on the shield? Yes - a lot of us painted like this at the start; it's a query, not a fact.

As I've never encountered one in this colour before either, could we be looking at adding a painted release to the white and peach plastic issues which have turned-up since the old article? And there was the brighter-looking mid-blue on Tatra's weblog; now gone, following another take-over which wasn't driven by them this time, and has seen them all but disappear.

 

27th September 2020 - Re. The right-hand image; someone called , or calling himself Dan Morgan is now claiming ownership of these images with a similar but somewhat different story as to their origins, so a pinch of salt needs to be thrown at someone? Or the original post? The man Dan Morgan has also established himself on a Faceplant group as a re-painter in single flat colours - one of which (used on some of his Wild West civilians/townsfolk) is very similar to this pink?

However, a true brown one has turned-up on evilBay, so swings and roundabouts!

 

C is for Contribution Week - III - Tatra from Brian

These are a fascinating contribution from New York, having come all the way here, via there, from the UK! Brian says they are the last UK figures he collected before leaving these shores for pastures new.

A packet front from the Nabisco biscuits that contained the premiums, Brian thinks around 1972/3 (they were also issued with Kellogg's Ricicles, probably the year before - 1971), Brian reports that there was a mail-away offer-panel on the box for the whole set, which he did send-off for, intending to paint them, he's still to get round to it; maybe if he does he'll send the Blog those pictures too!

Close-up of Mr. McHenry; However, if this is the correct figure I'm afraid they're not the Tatra set Brian thinks they are!

These figurines were one of three sets of Magic Roundabout premiums around in the late 1960's and early 70's, and are the most common being the smaller-sized set given away by Wall's ice cream, the biscuits Brian found them in and in Europe by several people including Tito (?) and Ola (who were a Wall's subsidiary, or in some way connected? Similar logo and brand-marks).

In the above shot Dylan is damaged and one of the birds is missing from what is - fully - a 16-item, 14-figurine set, it was a hurried shot of what's come-in, in the last few years; all my premiums are in storage!

While all the figurines have the little holes in the base (probably made by mould release-pins), common on these 'Euro' premiums, Mr McHenry has a larger hole which is used to locate him on a pin sticking up from the floor of his tricycle.

The other shot shows one of the more interesting colours available from Ola's Portuguese Ice Cream premiums (among others) on the right.

A larger sized set (probably* made by and -) looking like the Crescent Thunderbirds figures, was a Kellogg's Ricicles premium (1969), being issued with only 6 sculpts, most having bases - left hand figure in both shots. The Tatra set (also Kellogg's - 1970) were eight figures a little smaller that the [probably*] Crescent set - second from left in both shots, while Iron-on Magic Roundabout transfers were also issued by Kellogg's around '72.

The figure far right seems to be a piracy of the Nabisco and others commercial set, bearing all the hallmarks of the Lucky Luke piracy we looked at a while ago, those LL premiums also being widely issued by several of the same sources and having the little holes in the bases/feet.

Getting back to Tatra-produced stuff, Brian also sent a shot of his Kellogg's Soldiers - most [shock horror] still in their sanitised packs! These - of course - are Tatra! He remembers them as being in Sugar Smacks, also around '72. Of course I'm joking with the 'shock horror'; these premiums carry a 'Premium' if they are still unopened!

Again - thank you for the contribution Brian.

* Similar colours, similar bases and six poses; I rest my [probable] case until someone proves me wrong! But it further raises the possibility of Tom Smith having carried them as well?

Kellogg's on the Cereal premium website

Crescent (?) set 1969

Tatra Set 1970

Z is for Zoo Animal Premiums - Update

A quick update on the Zoo Animal premiums post ( Here ) of a few weeks ago, thanks to the Philosophic Toad for sending this image in of the 1972 issue of Zoo Animals;

This shows the 8 Animals as issued in 1972 (the date I couldn't tie down in the previous article?), but raises the questions of where Ratcliffe gets his list of 16 animals if there were only another 8? Why if this date is correct (it appeared in TV Comic and Look-In Sep/Oct '71 in one of two layouts) did they carry a set of 8 animals the same as the 1971 set, but remoulded, only to re-issue them again as a set of 16 later in the decade? And/or; Were the set of 16 taken from some of the smaller animals issued in Europe as Bubble-gum premiums as I suggested last time, or not issued by Kellogg's at all?

Note that this issue is related to/promoted by Puffa Puffa Rice and Coco Krispies, while the '71 set included two other brands; Sugar Smacks & Sugar Stars.

I suspect the set of 16 were not Kellogg's Frosties at all, but one of the other mentioned products, or an as yet unmentioned (in connection with these) brand...such as Peak Freans, who you'll remember had got involved with the equally internecine 'Soldiers of the World'. Leaving The two sets of 54mm'ish animals for Kellogg's, both coming from whoever (Tudor*Rose?), the second set being uprated and added-to for bagged rack-toys or a second customer such as Cadbury?

It's still not very clear and yet again I've got three web-pages open and two files next to me (at least I haven't had to cover the sofa this time!) but still seem to be confusing myself, let alone the reader! So I will try to redo both articles into one and delete the two older ones soon, in the meantime you'll have to jump between the two to try and make sense of the nonsense!

Also turning up in the last few weeks are this lot of vaguely HO/OO copies of Britains 54mm Zoo Animals, they are marked with a faint HONGKONG and probably came in Christmas Crackers of the 'Budget' variety.

Also Arlin Tawzer got in touch with an image of a set of animals which while similar to the (already similar) Dunkin and Kellogg's/not now Kellogg's (?) small scales contains some very different animals, I can't get hold of the Copyright holder so can't show it here, but the set is identifiable by a Water-Buffalo and an African Elephant with a very pointed back along with a small scale version of the above Rhino (not the blobby, cartoonish one of the other sets), also colours are different with dark greens and dark blues. If anyone has an un-copyrighted image of this set - complete - we'd love to see it here!

S is for Soldiers Of The World (SOTW)

Not 'Warriors of the World' - a Marx moniker, although Kellogg's did call them Warriors Through The Ages & Famous Warriors. A while ago in Plastic Warrior (PW; Here, subscribe, now, that's an order! ) issue no. 134 there was a very interesting article on these figures, which dispelled a few myths while creating a few questions and kicking-off a major response which PW published as a readers feedback section in issue no. 136 back in February.

Definitive base-marks solve debate.
ORIGINS - Nationality/Sculptor

One question which has always been debated is; from where did they originate? And with people suggesting both the US and Australia as the probable country of origin, it was a question to which I knew answer, if only because I had several marked MADE IN ENGLAND. A Highlander, Egyptian and Viking. At least 5 or 6 Highlanders have now turned up out of 10 or so marked figures, all told.

I photographed them and got them off to the editor in the Autumn, only for Kent Sprecher of ToysoldierHQ (link to right of page) to publish a 'spoiler' to the 'exclusive' a week or two before the issue hit the doormat - hey, them's the breaks! These are rare (if anything plastic is ever 'really' rare) and seem to occur in a ratio of about 1 in 300 figures. Now, as mine are from both 'sets' of eight (more later), it may just be that all sixteen will turn up marked, in the fullness of time? [Apologies to Kent, his link wasn't to the right, it is now, nestled with the other main dealers, and here; Toy Soldier HQ ]

So that question can be put bed, or can it?! There are also the questions; who designed them? & who manufactured them?

Well, the next myth to dispel is that Charles Stadden had anything to do with them, this myth (pretty much quashed in the PW 134 article [subscribe - you know you want to]) seems to go back to 1981 and the publication of J.G. Garrett's The World Encyclopedia of Model Soldiers, where he writes, and I quote; "(dare we to think they were designed by Stadden?)", in other words, he [Garrett] didn't really believe it himself, but thought he'd mention it!

If there is a single set or group of soldiers - toy, model or connoisseur - anywhere in the world that resembles the SOTW, you will find them in the manifest of MPC, USA. Their larger set of knights in red, white and black, the US Cavalry or the G.I.'s. Likewise some late production Marx 54mm sets seem to have the same similarities. I would imagine the SOTW were designed by a jobbing sculptor who also designed for MPC and Marx, whether we will ever know his name is the only mystery there.

Comparisons between SOTW, MPC & Marx.
ORIGINS - Maker/Manufacturer

Not just the sculpting of the figures, the bases scream MPC/Marx, apart from the absence of the little hole and mould-number indentation that sets MPC apart from most production while confusing them with the above mentioned late 54mm Marx! The SOTW Highlander is a classic MPC/late Marx production pose. I'm thinking Jap's, Russians, G.I.'s & jungle natives here, plus the Marx 54mm Saxon/Norman charging pose, Marine officers, G.I.'s, WWII Brit's, Russians & French, also; all these late sets are 16 cavity moulds, and we have 16 SOTW??!!....

However, don't think I'm suggesting they came from MPC or even Marx factories...humm...see below. The moulds must have spent some time in the UK, or they wouldn't have the mark they do. So myth 3; Rubenstine/Bowman (Ratcliffe) or Rubenstein (Stadinger)? That they came in the latter's bags is not in question, Paul 'Stad's' Stadinger (link also to the right and here; Stadstuff .) is a long-time documenter/researcher of this stuff, and would have held them in his hands before ascribing them. I believe Ratcliffe takes his "Bowman" reference from Garratt, who refers to 'Bowaters' as having been recipient of some of Stadden's work. Bowaters are now a global conglomerate in paper pulping and paper re-cycling, but back in 1970 seem to have been more closely involved in the production of finished product, such as...cereal boxes and board games.

In the follow-ups in PW 136, Philip Hamilton of the Hamilton Toy Collection (details here) mentions the nearby location of the Tri-ang works in Merton as being a possible source of what appeared to be sell-through of factory overstock of SOTW figures in the late 70's. This is significant, as Tri-ang were part of the Lines group, they would end up as Dunbee/Combex/Marx and Marx were just mentioned by me above?

Not only that, but Bowaters, was one of C.J. Parker's companies, and he became Lord Parker of Waddington...Yes, THAT Waddington[s], another company connected to Lines Brothers, as I mentioned in the Marx/Blue Box articles that I wrote for PW's little brother; One Inch Warrior. Minimodels in Havant (Lines Group) and Subbuteo, East Grinstead, along with Waddington's were three companies that Stadden DID work for, but I think that coincidence is as far as Stadden goes in all this.

Ignoring the above leaves one going down the Rubenstein/Bowman route another way, and while there is a Charles Bowman making Popcorn (which may have had a need for small military premiums/giveaways) in the US, his partner was Reden../Reddenbacker/..bacher not Rubenstein/..stien/..stine!

So most likely set up - at the moment - is; Member of the Lines group or Bowaters commissions (for Peak Frean's initially?) a well known (to the industry) sculptor, probably American, to produce a set of premiums (1969/70'ish), which are then hawked (as finished product or moulds) to the international food premium/giveaway and rack-toy market around the world, with possible stays - for the moulds - in Australia (mid 1970's) and with Rubenstein (late 1970's) in the US.

UK production might (big MIGHT - don't want to start a new myth!) have been in the Marx, Swansea unit or equally - if not more - likely; Tri-ang's Merton plant and were probably lost or destroyed in the massive round of toy industry amalgamations, takeovers and bankruptcies in the late 1970's/early 1980's. Or; They could still be in the States somewhere? [Or Canada, Bowaters had big plants there then and bigger plants there now, the fact that they concentrate on pulping doesn't mean they know the total contents of every shed or store room...Ohh, is that a new myth started?!]

[I notice that several of these images and some of the subsequent images below have been stolen by Ghislain Oubreyrie and poorly 'Photoshoped' for his mostly plagiarised website, there's nothing I can do about it at the moment, the man's a thief, but one day I'll sue his arse, and the more he puts (of mine) on his site the more I'll sue him for, at his current rate of thievery, I'll be getting the price of a small house off him one day...any French Intellectual Property lawyer fancy an easy case? It's just comparing images (with originals) and site-editing dates! meantime; the high quality originals will always be found here]

Variations in shade and colour.
RARITY- Colour & Pose

Rarity of colour variations; top shows the 4 'main' colours as a line of Highland Reavers coming to 'mayhem' a farmstead near you! Bottom left shows the comparison between the commoner gold, and less common bronze and between the silver and milky silver/brushed aluminum, with - on the right - the two reds, these tend to wash together under flash photography, but are clear to the naked eye. There appears to be only the one shade of blue which is a mid-blue somewhere between powder-blue and ultramarine, not the navy-blue ascribed somewhere. Neither - to my knowledge - has a cream coloured one ever surfaced.

The real rarity seems to depend on how long you've been collecting, how diligently you have sought these out and which country you live in. In the UK - for instance - Silver was considered common, with the other colours being 'rare', in recent years plenty of red and blue have surfaced and the gold are getting easier to find.

As to rarity of pose; the same applies. In the UK, Cluck Cereal Surprises (Ratcliffe) lists the British Grenadier, FFL, Roman and British Tommy as being "...harder to obtain", my own collection suggests that the Zulu and Swiss Bowman are the 'rare' ones, some believe that all those on the 'second' Nabisco list (Tommy, FFL, Musketeer, Cossack, Egyptian, Crusader, Spaniard & Zulu) are rarer, while the photo of painted figures from my mates collection below would leave the casual observer to believe the Tommy, Cossack and US Cavalryman were the uncommon poses.

Alan Copsey in PW 136 gives Roman, Crusader, Conquistador and Highlander as his list, but goes on to give a reason why they might be rare in his sample but not really rare at all. PW editorial say the Roman appears the rare one while P. Manninen in the same issue states that the second list of 8 is negligibly/marginally harder to locate...and so on.

I personally suspect the bronze and darker red are slightly less common being a shorter run, while the marked versions are quite hard to get, but I now know of at least 9/10 in three locations, so compared to the Lone*Star musketeer, they're not RARE, just relatively uncommon - for now! While, with regard to pose, none are more or less common than others.

I don't usually deal with value, but as I'm trying to cover everything here, I don't think they are worth more than a quid ($1.50) unmarked and have been selling all colours for 99p recently. Marked, they should fetch about a fiver ($7/8) .

The full 16 poses.
FIGURES

I have shown them in a vaguely chronological order above, but will list them as per. the Nabisco adverts, which illustrates them as two sets of 8. Text is from 'CLUCK', taken from Tiger & Jag comic - Neither set being the same as the Kellogg's 8? Reference to the photographs will be row, from the top, then figure from the left giving the Legionnaire (bottom, right) as 4/4.

Also, as a couple of them have 'common' names given them by collectors over the years, it struck me that in fact most of them could be given a character/moniker, and have done so in {parentheses}. I wonder if that was ever the original intention, and why they were given the more every-day names they ended up with?

FIRST 'SET'

US Cavalry - 4/2 {Custer}
Lieutenant Dixon of the 7th US Cavalry helped open up the West. He protected settlers and fought the Indian and Mexican armies. [One thing I forgot to mention, this figure is very uncommon with a full flag as pictured, usually it is a truncated blob.]

Mexican - 4/1 {Pancho Villa}
Pancho the Mexican bandit fought many battles against the United States, including the battle for the Alamo. Base mark believed to have been changed to 'Mexican' from 'Mexican Bandit' when the molds were moved to Mexico? [Fontes]

Turk - 3/2
Hasseim the Turk believed that to die in battle was the most glorious of all deaths. he fought for Saladin against the Crusaders. **[In Ottoman dress!]

Swiss Bowman - 2/2 (sometimes referred to as {William Tell})
Fritz was a Swiss mountaineer who fought the Hapsburg Austrian armies. with [sic.] William Tell.

Roman 1/2 (sometimes referred to as {Caesar})
Marcus the Roman belonged to an army that conquered and ruled the world for well over 500 years. He fought in Caesar's victorious legions.

British Grenadier 3/4
John Cartman was a man with great strength. He fired the heavy cannons for the early British army. [Not in that Miter-cap he didn't!]

Scots 3/4 {Wallace}
McGregor was a Scottish Highlander who joined Bonnie Prince Charlie's army and was defeated trying to win back the English throne for him.**[Kellogg's call him 'Highlander']

Viking 1/3 {Erik Bloodaxe}
Eric the Viking sailed the seas on a huge long-boat. He was a merciless, ferocious warrior and a great explorer. He landed in America...(the rest is missing in CLUCK and unreadable in PW, anyone got the last line?).**

SECOND 'SET'

The British Tommy 4/3 {Tommy Atkins}
The British Tommy fought alongside the Australians in the First and Second World Wars.

Foreign Legion 4/4 {Beau Geste}
Henri Gaston of the French Foreign Legion fought in the hot deserts of North Africa against fierce Arab tribes.

French Musketeer 2/3 {d'Artagnan - which they use}
D'Artagnan was a gay cavalier, an expert swordsman, a skilled rider and a keen shot with his musket.**[Kellogg's call him plain 'Musketeer']

Cossack 3/3 {Bohdan}
Ivan the Cossack was a fierce fighter and joined Russia's Imperial Army to help defeat Napoleon.

Egyptian 1/1 {Ramses}
Sihue the Egyptian wore a water bag on his arm for long desert marches. He fought in Cleopatra's army against the Roman Legions.** [Except he's not in Ptolemaic garb, but wearing stuff from 1500 or so years earlier]

Crusader 2/1 {Richard I}
Sir Robert de Courtney [maker of fine medievals?] journeyed to Palestine to capture the Holy city of Jerusalem. His leader was Richard I, King of England.**

Spaniard 3/1 {Co'rdoba, Alvarado or the given Cortez}
Miguel the Spanish Conquistador sailed with Cortez to Mexico and conquered the land of the Aztecs.**[Kellogg's call him 'Spanish Infantryman', in Canada; 'Infantry']

Zulu 1/4 {Shaka}
Ibuktu the Zulu warrior was a tribesman of South Africa. He fought many fierce battles with British and Boer Troops.**

** denotes Kellogg's UK 'set' of eight figures

The other thing to note about the full 16 is that with a bit of stretching, you could pretty well pair them up, biggest stretch being the Imperial Roman with the Biblical Egyptian.

Six of a possible seven.
EXTRAS

Peak Frean's offered a fort for 17/9d (p) + a token from the pack as a mail-away with cannons and flags "..etc."? this was probably stiff card or hardboard and it goes on to say "...you'd have to pay much, much, more" [in the shops], and most forts of that ilk/era were pressed, stamped, screen-printed (on one side) hardboard.

Nabisco had a 'posing panel' on the back of the box, different for each figure.

Kellogg's Finnish issue had a three part cut-out fort on the back of the box, with each part requiring one of three different boxes.

Typical packet/dry-food delivery container.
ISSUES - Known or Suggested

Australia - (?)
Kellogg's Factory (?), silver, 16 poses.

Australia - 1976
Nabisco, Shredded Wheat & Crispies breakfast cereals, Soldiers of the World, silver, 16 poses

Canada - 1960's (?) [I would imagine 1969 at the earliest. Actually- boxes dated 1968!]
Kellogg's Apple Jacks, Cocoa Krispies, Froot Loops, Honey Smacks, Puffa Puffa Rice, Raisin Bran, Rice Krispies and Sugar Pops breakfast cereal,  Soldiers of the Ages/Soldats de Tous les Temps, Silver, 16 poses, Boxes have cut-out scenery (8 boxes make a whole fort) and collectors cards (1 per box). [Mr. M. Purchase via Stad's and Dan Humar, Plastic Warrior Magazine No. 151]

Finland - 1972
Kellogg's Raksuja (Frosties) breakfast cereal, Sarja Historian Sotureita (Warriors from History/Historical Warriors Series), Silver, 16 poses.

Ireland (?) [mentioned by Hamilton as being noted by Garrett, I can find no mention of Garrett writing this but I've only got two of his four books?].

Portugal? [Miguel Fontes, Plastic Warrior 137 letters page]
Kellogg's? Translucent Brownish plastic, 16 poses

Portugal - 1970's [Bourbonese Braga - Parai'so Artificial Blog]
Ajax, Washing powder, Soldados Historicos (Historical Soldiers), silver and gold, 16 poses

UK - 1970
Kellogg's, Puffa Puffa Rice breakfast cereal, Famous Warriors/Warriors Through the Ages, silver, 8 poses only - Conquistador, Zulu, Egyptian, Viking, Highlander, Crusader, Musketeer & Turk.

UK - 1969 (Garratt ?), 1959 (Hamilton ?)
Peak Frean's, Pom Poms biscuits, Soldiers Through the Ages, Gold, Silver, Red & Blue (Opie thinks Gold only?), 16 poses, mail-away fort 'with cannons'? [I'd have to go with Garratt, they don't say 1950's to me. Actually 1968 - James Opie via Plastic Warrior Magazine No.152]

UK - ?
Petrol/Gasoline premium [mentioned by Ratcliffe as being the source for the non-silver figures, I think that this was probably the Peak Frean's Pom Poms?].

US - late 1970's/Early 1980's
Rubenstein, [about 4 conflicting titles - anyone know the correct name on the cards?], header-carded, bagged rack-toy, Silver & Blue (?), 16 poses (?)

I have seen these at the German show in Herne, and would assume they were issued somewhere in France, Germany or the Low Countries, by someone?

Various attempts at painting the figures.
ACKNOWLEDGMENTS / CREDITS

Looking at the above, taken from one dealers stock, I'd better start by thanking all those unknown Toy Soldier Collectors, Modelers and War-gamers who painted (or part painted) the above!.

Also this article is the result of many years research by me, and all those listed below, oldest source first;

John G. Garratt, The World Encyclopedia of Model Soldiers, 1981, Muller Publishing

Wayne Ratcliffe, CLUCK (Complete Listing Un-completed [of] Cereal Kollectable), Issue I, 2001, Private Publication

Plastic Warrior Magazine No's 134 (2009), 136 (2010), 151 & 152 (both 2013), Subscription Publication (so subscribe!)

John Begg, Bourbonese Braga, Alan Copsey, Miguel Fontes, Philip Hamilton, Dan Humar, Pekka Allan Manninen, Paul Morhead, James Opie, Michael Purchase, David Pye, Kent Sprecher, Paul 'Stads' Stadinger, Kevin Strood, Terry Westlake, Jan Yarzembowski (hope I spelt that right! - I have now!) and others whom I've chatted to, bought from or - recently - sold to.

The amount of time people spend talking about these figures at shows, the interest shown in even common silver figures on eBay and the uncommonly large feedback to PW would suggest that you can forget the Airfix Tarzan, you can forget Britains mounted War of the Roses 'Swoppet' knights, these guys have a piece of the heart of every collector of a 'certain' age! So if you can add anything to what is still only conjecture and an incomplete list, email or comment...

112/10/2012 - Sadly; the mystery seems to have been solved - see last comment (funny this is the 4th most popular post of all time, yet comments diametrically thin on the ground?), they were made by Tatra and an update will be forthcomming any day now. 

Now full update is Here