C is for Colección de Indios y Cow Boys Humorísticos

This is a weird one? Firstly, it was intended to be the fourth post in the sequence when we looked at the Lik Be / Gordy sets of Wild West kids and knock-off cake decorations, back in June (although I don't think these have any connection with LB, beyond the humerous and Wild West subject matter), and secondly, because I don't seem to have shown my trio on the blog, when they only came in recently, and were intended for this post, whenever I got round to posting it?

 

I've checked the recent show report posts, I've checked the donation stuff from Chris and Peter, and can't find them, so I suspect they may have been a private purchase, which got sorted into the collection, in the normal rhythm of things, and while I would have intended to shoot them, I must have sorted them into the 4x5½ bags I use, and sent them off to storage without shooting them?

 

Anyway, I found them last night, looking for something else, over at the storage site, and brought them back here, thinking maybe I'd posted it all, but 'just in case', and sure enough, no sign of them on the Blog, and the specific post, still in Picasa! So shots taken and we'll look at them and the Jecsan catalogue first, then a bunch of Internet scrapings found over the years.

 

Jecsan catalogue scan, the full set of figures goes to six foot and three mounted each for the two lots of protagonists, with one horse pose each; bareback for the Indians, and saddled for the Westerners. The card for the separate Tipi seems to be designed to make a lithographed 'paper flat' totem pole?

 

The toymen of Hong Kong took two of the foot Indians and one of the mounted cowboys for some revenue generation, probably at the request of a Western buyer, that's how it worked there, but gave the mounted cowboy the Indian horse - presumably because that's what the sample they were given, to pirate, contained?

 

A decent rear-shot

The hat of my cowboy is lacking the mark seen further down the page, he being marked on his back, instead, suggesting at least two lots/tranches of these, with either changes to the tool, or separate tools, a quandary not made easier by them all sticking to the same paint-scheme . . . multiple cavities maybe?

 

Paint, and markings have some similarities with Blue Box production of the era, think either set of Knights or the Jean-cloned Wild West, so these (or 'some' of these) may have come from one of the Tai Sang factories, but we'll probably never know?

 

Looking at these 'Comic Coyboy' cale decorations, from Carrousel, but not owning them, I can only suspect that A) they may be hard polystyrene, against the soft Polyethylene of all the others seen here, and B) might be smaller sub-piracies - a second/third lot/set.

 

The painting is simpler, and indeed, it appears one mounted cowboy/horse combo' is undecorated, but big may/mights here? They also look similar in general execution, to the HK copies of Ajax base-ballers, American footballers and other cake decorations in the same vein?

 

 

There seems to have been one of the many copies of the Britains Herald totem pole also associated with them, but paint differences and plastic colour might point to them just being 'chucked in' to online auction images?

 

A pair of Indians, presumably a similar card has the cowboy and horse in a different blister? The "Cowboy [singular] and Indians [plural] in that heliotrope/carmine-red 'ink stamp' effect font, is found on other Wild West rack toys, and may be another clue to producer, or more likely wholesale agent? But again we're unlikely to ever know!

 

Another pair.

 

The different mark of the possible second lot, I mentioned above. A separate tool or later change to the existing tool? Sadly the pictures in this auction lot (final five images), didn't include a decent rear-shot - as they hardly ever do!

 

The only paint variation with the commoner set, is this cowboy with a red shirt, suggesting a larger set, although a horse is absent, but it makes for a more balanced 2:2 fight in the icing around a chocolate-finger 'log' fort!

 

They aren't really compatible with the Lik Be sets, being more obviously caricature adults, than the cubby-cheeked kids of the LB set, but are cartoony enough to compliment a display of them, should someone want a display of infant-oriented cake decorations! And there's the Lucky Luke figures from Comansi and similar figures from Exin (which may have been sourced from Comansi too), to consider in this genre.

U is for Useless Post Title!

It's one of those things, sometimes you think of something amusing (even if only to you), and then forget it and can't get it back. When I was preparing these posts (there were originally four), and I settled on the silent k-for-n gag with the first post, I hadn't given any thought to the other three post's titles, but after realising I could abuse another k (as a c) in the second post, I came up with two more k-related funnies for the other two posts.

 

I then had a couple of pretty mardy days, last week, took a couple of days to recover, and realised I'd forgotten both titles! And despite a few lazy days, during which I hoped at least one of them would come to me, neither has, and so, well, the above!

 

I've also combined the last two posts into one, deleted a couple of dozen shite images, and so this is the odds & ends, on the LB Wild West Children; that's LB for Lik Be, of course!

 

From the 1986 Lik Be catalogue image, we find these three figures painted to a higher standard than the '70's toys, and a music box, similarly decorated, with the mounted Indian, I would imagine that all are actually polystyrene, rather than the polyethylene of the earlier toys, with the separate figures being marketed as cake decorations, maybe?

 

In the US, Gordy International carried them, individually, in blister packs, and larger sets (below), whether this means Pikit carried them over here or not, is questionable, I suspect not, the dates don't seem to add-up, and just because two importers/jobbers carry the same thing once, doesn't mean they always do! Note the mounted Indian offered as a baseless foot figure, and another shot of the errant (from my set) Mexican.

 

The larger sets (of which I have only found these) include paired cowboys with one of the building fronts, you don't get the rest of the building, just the frontage, which Peter Evans pointed-out were closer to Britain's Lone Star than anything else, and a quick Google revealed the double front 'City Office - Land Claims / City Jail' to be a direct copy of the Lone Star design, so I'm hazarding a guess all three are?

 

Close-up of the Mexican, and a few duplicates, from evilBay, next to a Bergan-Beton 60mm, I've listed them in the Tags as 1:No Scale, given their novelty nature, and no clue as to the ages of the kids depicted, are they six, or ten?

 

Three more from feebleBay, the Britain's heritage of the damaged middle one being obvious. Given the number of plastic colours each turns-up in, they must have run the moulds for some time, and they should be commoner than they are, especially with Gordy's involvement, Cake Decoration and boxed sets in the mix?

 

Prior to obtaining the boxed set, a follow-up to previous appearances here at Small Scale World had been in the long queue (most of this post), for some years, and these are two of the girls I already had, as I said before, the four girls do seem to be more commonly found, but that could just be my own experience, and evidence of no real phenomena at all? No, I don't know what the unicorn is doing there! Summoned by a Reign Dance? I'll get me coat . . . 

 

Various base marking treatments, some mine, some feeBay, quite an eclectic mix, with clear similarities to both the Spacemen (shallow disc) and the smaller Astronaut pair, or War of Independence cake decoration stuff (deeper recess with chamfered sides) and 'funimals' (A-codes).

 

Almost the entire range was clearly marked, with the buildings having the awful 'Is it IDL, or is it LP? No, it's LB for Lik Be' logographic at the top of the shopfront/gable-ends, and while people can persevere with the LP attribution (some on evilBay are still using IDL!) out of stubbornness, they will look sillier and sillier as the years progress, and that stubbornness will eventually be rewritten as simple stupidity!

A couple of shots from 'Le Baye' I held on to, a few years ago, ID'ing a Totem Pole I thought - at the time - I might never acquire, just so I knew what it looked like! Although looking paler, I suspect it's the same colour as mine, and was, possibly like the Cacti, exclusive to the boxed sets?

 

When originally posting these I gave the impression I didn't know much about them, but I suspect it was just blurb-creation, as they had been something to be found in mixed lots and rumage trays for years prior to my obtaining a couple, and I'd seen plenty, while serving as a dealer's bitch, around the turn of the Century, but we didn't know back then, they were Lik Be/LB!

C is for Crazy Cartoon Kids

Yeah, I'm giving that K a battering! This set came in back in January, but I didn't get to shoot it until February, It's funny, 'cos Bushy keeps asking his readers to send him their 'LP' lists, while I keep posting the LB lists! We've had the Dinosaurs and Cavemen, did the Gygax knock-offs and skirted round the farm sets (and musicians); not quite ready to do the definitive on them or the other Funimals yet, but I thought I'd better do the Wild West, which will leave the Christmas cake decorations for another day!

 

The box had seen better days, and there is at least one item missing, but otherwise this seems to be a complete rendition of the Wild West line, a similar 'circus village' was seen on Faceplant a couple of years ago, with all, or most of the Funimals, if only we could find something similar for the fishermen . . . throw them in with the divers, and a boat!

 

Cowboys!

 

Mexican!

 

Only five foot cowboys and the missing Mexican (he'll be in the next post), for a six-count (the Indians get eight), I love how some enterprising out-worker has painted the skin of the flesh-coloured figure ashen-grey, for a contrast . . . so he looks like a zombie cowboy kid!

 

The Stage Coach

 

I suspect it should have the sticker on both sides, not least than because the box shows it on the other side! But, like the Mexican it's been lost somewhere between Hong Kong, Italy (from whence I purchased it) and here, so I'll have to keep an eye out for a damaged one going cheap, with at least one sticker I can transfer!

The horses are in the same arrangement on both wagons, as per colour distribution (it's a single moulding), as they are on the box-art, but a different pattern, so, I guess each out-worker got into a different rhythm, but all got one of each colour! Wagoner is the same moulding on both, increasing the cowboys to seven sculpts.

 

Boys!

 

But the cowboys are outnumbered by the Indians who have eight foot figures, four each boys, and girls, while there are no cowgirls? Fluorescent pink is probably not quite historically accurate, and you may be noticing a similarity between some of these poses, both cowboys and Indians, and the Britains Deetail range, not that they are direct piracies, but some of the poses have been used as a guide, which means these can't be older than around 1972?

 

 Girls!

 

Not so with the girls, and I have to apologise to a mate of mine, as I sent him one of these as a 'Little Plumb', a few years ago, and it turns out she was a Little Plumbette! You know who you are, and I'll sort out some boys as soon as I have some duplicates! For reasons I can't begin to explain, these four seem to be far easier to find, loose, at shows, or on-line, than either the Indian boys or the cowboys?

Raising the count to ten!

Looking similar at first glance, these are completely different sculpts, although they have reused the body from the neck down. But a lot of effort went into the whole set, as shown with these two. Opposite arm sculpts to match, and it's clear the body tool and arm tools were different as the plastic-colours don't match, which happens if you're adding the pigment by hand, to neutral granules at the final stage.
 

Final count 9/11

The demented horse is different from the wagon animal, but was used for both riders.

 

Three buildings are included, which are half-Timpo/half-Atlantic in execution, with a shallow rear assembly (identical for all three) attached to different facades, this is the Silver City Bank, but when you're outnumbered by the locals you haven't got time to rob a bank!

 

Construction follows the Timpo model, but as shallow 'theatrical scenery' in heavy polyethylene blocks, which is more like the Atlantic 'Abilene West City' buildings, from Italy?

 

Frisco Bar

City Office - Land Claims / City Jail

 

All the free-swinging doors are factory fitted, but the back 'box' requires assembly.

Another Britains copy, this one Herald, and an umteenth-generation one though, with many better ones coming before it, including the hard-plastic one we saw as part of a cake decoration set a while back.

 

The distinctive LB fence sections, you get six in two bags of three, presumably because three was the number added to other sets, like the My Farm sets we saw, or the Animal Fun Fair set?

 

As far as I know, the two cactus vignettes are unique, rather than copies of anything else, and while I'd previously ID'd the righthand one and listed it in the Lik Be master list, the left-hand one here, was a revelation, when I got hold of it earlier this year.

 

The tree is a common Hong Kong item, and while carrying an LB A-code, is a fourth-or-more-generation copy, as is the ex-Crescent monkey-puzzle tree.

 

Two scenic vignettes, both taken from Britains Deetail, which nicely pulls it all together, re my comment above, and the well! We looked at various versions of the well a while ago, and I don't remember even looking for marks in the roofs!

 

https://smallscaleworld.blogspot.com/2020/09/d-is-for-ding-dong-bell-pussys-in-well.html 

 

But I bet it'll turn out that the slightly smaller ones are all LB cake decorations, that chromed one is similar to the spacemen from Culpitt, while the slightly larger one (on the left of the two shots) will be a donor, from someone else? But it's nice to be slowly pulling all this stuff together, I got a lot of help with those well-posts from Chris Smith and Barney Brown.

 

Finally, a unique, but very childish design of Totem pole, to add to that oeuvre! Apart from the base sticking out, it's a slab-flat with a smooth, blank reverse.

 

Nearly everything in the set carries a standard Lik Be A-code, which, with a few exceptions among the scenics, and with the addition of two Rhinoceroses, are in several blocks toward the end of the main LB A-prefix numbering, as known to this author. But there are a few 3, 4, 5 and even 600's before the B-codes, with probably more to discover, much of the below was only added a few weeks ago.

Listing

Wild West

≈

No. A149 - Wishing Well (two-part, marked in roof only)

[unmarked] - Farm Fence Section (x6 in large set) 

≈

No. A153 - Tree/Shrub with Clump of Grass 

≈

No. A219 - Teepee / Tipi / Wigwam (ex-Britains Herald, polypropylene, might be bought-in, but has LB code) 
No. A220 - Totem Pole (unique, but juvenile design) 
No. A221 - ‘Clancy Claim’ Sign (Britains Deetail piracy) 
No. A222 - ‘Dead Mans Gulch’ Sign (Britains Deetail piracy) 
No. A223 - Stage Coach (Multi part kit with 4x A225, marked on one half of body only) 
No. A224 - Cowboy Waggoner (for stage-coach [A223] and Wild West Wagon [A234]) 
No. A225 - Cart Horse / Wild West Coach-Wagon Horse (MADE IN . . HONG KONG .)

[unmarked] - Horse-Trace/Furniture

[unmarked] - Base for Four Horses

[unmarked] - Small Wheel/Axle Assembly

[unmarked] - Large Wheel/Axle Assembly

No. A226 - Native American Canoe (hard polystyrene) 
No. A227 - Indian Girl Canoeist (one feather in headband, earrings, pigtails) 
No. A228 - Indian Girl Canoeist (two feathers in headband) 
[unmarked] - Canoeists Arms (dipping oar to left) 

[unmarked] - Canoeists Arms (dipping oar to right)
No. A229 - 
No. A230 - 
No. A231 - 
No. A232 - Rhinoceros (very male!)
No. A233 - Rhinoceros (female?)
No. A234 - Wild West Wagon (Multi part kit with 4x A225, marked on underside of wagon-box) 
No. A235 - Silver City Bank (three part building frontage) 
No. A236 - Frisco Bar (three part building frontage) 
No. A237 - Land Claim Office / City Jail (three part building frontage) 
[unmarked] - Building Roof Piece 
[unmarked] - Building Rear Wall 
[unmarked] - Building, Left Side 
[unmarked] - Building, Right Side 
No. A238 - Monkey Puzzle Tree (Crescent copy, x2 in large set) 
No. A239 - Group of Cacti & Succulents (x2 in large set) 
No. A240 - Prickly Pears (x2 in large set) 
No. A241 - Indian Girl with Tomahawk (pirated by SK as No. 194) 
No. A242 - Indian Girl Dancing 
No. A243 - Indian Girl with Tom-Tom Drum 
No. A244 - Indian Girl with Bow & Arrow (shooting up) 
No. A245 - Cowboy with Lasso/Lariat 
No. A246 - [Mexican Boy with Six Guns] (should prove to be A246?) 
No. A247 - Cowboy with Six-guns, One Pulled, One Holstered 
No. A248 - Cowboy Boy with Rifle

≈
No. A263 - Mounted Indian Boy, Lance & Rifle 
No. A264 - (Possibly unused horse code, replaced by No. A267?) 
No. A265 - Mounted Cowboy, Two Six-guns, One Pulled, One Holstered 
No. A266 - (Possibly unused horse code, replaced by No. A267?) 
No. A267 - Wild West Horse (for both riders)
≈
No. A280 - Cowboy with Six-guns (right level) 
No. A281 - Cowboy with Six-guns (right high) 
No. A282 - Indian Boy ‘Little Bear’ with Lance 
No. A283 - Indian Boy with Tomahawk & Rifle 
No. A284 - Indian Boy with Bow & Arrow (shooting parallel) 
No. A285 - Indian Boy with Tomahawk and Shield (pirated by SK as No. 195)
≈
Sets
No. 1104 - Cowboy & Indian (large set containing one each of everything, with multiples of scenics, building parts, and draft-horses, along with six pieces of farm fencing)

N is for Native Knock-offs!

Silent-K doing a lot of lifting there! I picked these up back in, phfff . . . 2022, '23 maybe? Apparently shot them in April last year, and they've been sat in Piacsa ever since! So I thought I'd shove them up here, before I forgot them altogether!

Being hard polystyrene copies, two each, of a couple of the soft polyethylene LB (Lik Be) cartoonish, funny Indian kid sculpts, being those originally numbered as A264 (on the left) and A241 (on the right), and issued here, as fun cake decorations.

Here numbered S.K.195 (right) and S.K.194 (left) respectively, the only SK I can find is Sun Kee Metal, of Kowloon, who did a pair of battery-operated dogs, but under Bushy the Twig's logic, that would make them 'SM'! If they did cuddly-toys and metal stuff, they may have done these too, but the evidence isn't strong enough to award them a full Tag yet, I fear? But I will!

Comparison between the Lik Be original on the left of each shot and the 'SK' on the right, a straight pantograph, slightly smaller, but with all details otherwise replicated, and given the brittle nature of their material, probably not that many survivors out there, but then, with cake decorations, there's often a lot of unused stock kicking-around, so worth looking out for if you collect the dafter stuff.

 

This is dated to September of last year, which raises questions, and explains, partly, why I lost the folder, the gravel I shot them on, above, is at the old house, which I haven't been able to shoot anything on since June of 2023, and this is the original sales shot from evilBay, so could be from 2021? Something clearly happened when the folder was transferred to this PC, and I have no idea what, but everything was re-dated, seemingly randomly!

 

Listing 

No. A241 - Indian Girl with Tomahawk (pirated by SK as No. 194)

No. A285 - Indian Boy with Tomahawk and Shield  (pirated by SK as No. 195)

R is for Return - to Nazi Flats

So we looked at these a while ago and I asked whether they might be post-war, maybe East German or Russian parodies of Nazi's as part of some propaganda exercise, possibly cigarette premiums, but I had shot them hurriedly, at a show, and had not had time to investigate them properly.

Now that I have looked at them closely (they are in the collection!) the only fact remaining from the earlier musing would seem to be . . . they might have been cigarette premiums! Everything else is up for grabs!

The first clue is that they are all marked DRGM (Deutsches Reich Gebrauchs Muster = a minor patent or registered design), which was [one of] the German equivalent[s] (they had dozens) of the English 'Pat.Pend' or French/Italian Depose, and which ran from before the Nazi rule, until after it, so wherever they came from, the evidence says it was within the confines of either 'greater Germany' or the later West Germany?

The next clue is that the flag has a large swastika clearly visible upon it, and if you're wondering why I obliterated the swastikas on the Atlantic set but not here; it's simply that the Atlantic set is a weird modern 'homage' to a vile, murderous, militarised, yet 'civilian' political regime, while these - as we will see - are probably 'historical artifacts' - it's all about context!

Another possible clue is the short arms on the flag's swastikas, which could point to something? Did the SA use short arms; production likely during the NAZI period, or did the artist not know the correct dimensions because it was so new; production likely before the Nazis came to power?

Swastikas are also suggested on several arm-bands, and the reason this is such a clue is that the showing of Nazi iconography was made illegal soon after the end of the war as part of the de-Nazification effort, which means we can probably rule out West Germany, as we have now ruled-out the East.

Which leaves the figures as German-made and set in or just before the Nazi's came to power? Here we see that the helmeted figures have the side-studs for mounting things like face -guards/visors on, and - while the tops have been rendered slightly flatter by removal from the runner - still, the lines of the helmet are the squarer one of WWI Stosstruppen 'Boxheads', rather than the later, rounder/cleaner-lined one which 'soldiered-on' with the West German fire-brigade until quite recently.

Other clues include the grey-green coated figures; the Germans used a very similar coating on their steel training ammunition to prevent surface-rust (arrowed - where the varnish seal was broken extracting the black-powder) in storage, while it is a neutral varnish to the figures green, the thinness, with metal showing through, and the all-over, thin-wash, one-coat nature is the same, it's not conclusive evidence, it's a clue, and it allows me to show you a rare'ish piece of militaria!.

Bit of a departure mid-post, but I'd better explain; The rounds (stained pink for an unknown reason; mould inhibitor, 'live' status designator?) are wooden, they would not have travelled far, or done much damage, but at short ranges (indoor or pipe-ranges) might have marked a target, while on exercise; they would have provided realistic 'kick', noise and smoke/smell, and could launch rifle-grenades without mishap. However, the hollow in the wooden bullet, would have caused drag-turbulence and lost momentum very quickly - they are basically blanks!

The cases are steel (cheaper than brass; by '43 they were losing the war) and compared here with a modern 5.56mm SA80 blank-round (which is brass). They are sitting in the magazine re-loading clip they came with, which is very similar to the ones we used with SLR's in the 1980's (but then the cartridge bases are near identical on both rounds) but this is stainless, or a non-ferrous steel-like alloy , while ours were steel, painted gun-black and would rust in damp pouches!

They were de-activated many years ago by yours truly, who put the black powder to good use, that is; if you consider Tobin and myself nearly blowing our faces off with a home-made chair-leg cannon and then almost drilling a large hole in my brother's head with a tractor-wheel bolt-grenade 'good use', otherwise the black-powder was recklessly used in haste, dangerously, but all three of us had a brilliant afternoon - 41 years ago, summer half-term!

So, back to the figures; there are several possible scenarios, the first (1) still being that they were piss-taking parodies?

But now of German origin (rather than the Ost Deutsche or Soviet proposed last time) and from someone on the 'Left', satirising the early Nazi's; all that prancing about with Ernst Rohm and his mob of bully-boy, brown-shirt, boy-scout SA, happy-campers! And most of the figures are wearing the little SA kepi?

Being manufactured before they came to power, in which case it's a fair bet everyone involved in these figures may have ended-up in a concentration camp, a - likely - fate which would add a certain poignancy to the set.

But then -  Rohm was a bit of a short-arse? If the 'Hitler' character (third from left?) is a piss-take of Rohm, these could be SS or NSADP-sanctioned (2) piss-takes of the SA, in order to prepare the ground for The Night of the Long Knives? Or even - referring back to the same, in order to explain/excuse [propagandise] it, after the event?

I can only find this and while he was banned by the Nazi's, he wasn't killed, and his style is different?

Or . . . (3) that they were comedy figures - but possibly based on characters that would have been known to the populace at the time, perhaps from a newspaper strip-cartoon?

Taking the Mickey out of one's own military in order to humanise it (especially when it's rightly regarded as the instrument of a totalitarian, fascist dictatorship, busy 'disappearing' people in the middle of the night . . . or broad daylight!) has a rich history . . .

. . . one thinks of Old Bill and Woodbine Willy in WWI, the 'Two Types' in WWII, or Bilko, Beetle Bailey, Dad's Army, It 'Aint Half Hot Mum, ITMAR and The Navy Lark on radio or MASH, and all the great double acts; Abbot & Costello, Bud & Lou, Laurel & Hardy had/did military parodies?

This guy almost looks 'familiar', was he one of the characters in a series of Nazi propaganda posters, or have I just Blogged him too much?!!

Lined-up with a few known-WHW's, were they - indeed - (4) comedy WHW's?

From the left we have a bisque miner from a set of profession/occupation broach-figures (pin rusted to almost nothing), a composition pilot with string-hanger hole in his floatation collar (no Mae West 'boobies' for the Luftwaffe!) possibly from Elastolin or Lineol (?), two of the aluminium figures, one polished, the other coated, an unpainted WHW policeman, a painted 'historical uniform' figure (I seem to recall they were issued as Guard Regiments of Berlin) and one from the set we looked at the other day.

The police set has been tied-in to the Gau of Berlin (as issuer) also, but there are actually several versions, painted, unpainted and heavier-based, so like the commoner 'combat' set, there seems to be a history  of multiple issues and/or multiple issuers behind the set.

Finally (5) they could be 'just' post-war parodies, getting out before the ban on Nazi regalia and iconography took hold? But I think - now - we are looking at something earlier.

Unifying the animal samples for a comparison/completion shot or two I can report that they are all unmarked with the exception of the rhinoceros which is clearly marked 'FOREIGN', suggesting they (some or all?) were imported into the UK at some point, where they would most likely have been Christmas cracker novelties.

The similarities in base are unmistakeable, but the animals - both farm/domestic and zoo/wild are of a slightly poorer finish, so a late use of older moulds perhaps? Hanomag and Fokker are still going strong, Elastolin survived until the 1990's, no reason why a small toy-maker or metal-fabricator from the Nazi-era shouldn't have dug it's old animal moulds out in the 1950's or '60's and run them again?

Mine have come as two, small, mixed lots (farm & zoo together both times), possibly with the Rhino' separate (I've rather lost track of them all by blogging them in the wrong order!), so it's all only conjecture, but I think a common-source is quite likely, especially as flats are often ID'able from the nuances of the bases, not that these - injection-moulded alloy - are exactly 'traditional' zinn flats!